A real NO flame Debate

[lego]

ok i want to see this, lets have a debate on if you are PRO action in Iraq, or Against the action we have taken,

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS FLAMING

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS WITHOUT VALID POINTS BACKING YOUR SIDE

DO NOT POST JUST SAYING YOU AGREE WITH SOMOENE

DO NOT EAT THE YELLOW SNOW!

post your side in the beginging of your post above everything

the sides are

Pro action in Iraq

VS

Anti action in Iraq

[Beyond_Valor]

good call lets keep it civil,

its no fun starting a thread and geting it hijacked because someones had a bad day....

[Bort]

$5 says 10 posts till this is a flame war.

... and anti.

[lego]

i am PRO, i feel saddam needed to be taken out and what his "government" was doing needed to go

[Sargent Anderson]

What about the Bush government?

[lego]

Originally Posted by Sargent Anderson

What about the Bush government?

working out just fine for me right now, i dont know whats wrong with it..

[Sargent Anderson]

Well from what I hear the war has almost bankrupted(sp?) the US and Bush has destroyed the economy.

I am leaning towards the anti-war side

[The Master]

anti

Removing Saddam was good no doubt, but the way to do it was clearly wrong. The war was planned long before and would have even took place if Saddam fulfilled all the request given by the US and he wouldnt have any WMD. <hint hint>
The whole problem is the bush goverment was steering towards this war over months like in slow motion and the world community couldnt do anything, because the US were ignoring everyone else and are so strong noone could force them.

The bush administration started an attack war against international right and conventions, practically cut the fine net of agreements and worldwide institutions which where formed after WW2 to handle conflicts and stop escalation so such things like WW2 never happen again.
All other nations see its solo play time and not teamplay.

And all other nations see you dont have to obey international laws or agreements when you are strong enough, you dont even need proof or an urgent reason to start a war against someone else, you only need to have enough power and you can do whatever you want.

So the new rule for everyone is caveman style, i have the biggest club so i win. Im a small 2nd world nation so i need WMD asap, because only then im safe from someone attacking me, and probaly can look over to the nice neighbour country.

So i think the way choosen was bad for the world and i also think it was bad for every american.

After 9/11 the usa had the sympathy of the world and everyone helped hunting down terrorists, even the arabic countries where helping the secret service to locate al qaedia people.

After iraq half the world thinks usa is arrogant and has fucked up.
Al qaedia probaly has more sympathies, money donatators and recruits then ever before.

[Mad Monk]

I believe the man said the topic was:

"Pro action in Iraq
VS
Anti action in Iraq"

Not, pro Bush gov't or not.

Aaaanywaayyyy,

I'm for the action. I think it needed to be done for many reasons (and regardless of the existence of WMDs). The regime needed changing and we're getting it done (we meaning the U.S. and others). Granted, there have been some rough spots, but I think it will turn out better in the end.

I hate to see our soldiers dying as much as anyone else, but I refuse to believe that they are dying in vain. I firmly believe that "Joe Iraqi" wants this over with as much as we do and that most of the trouble is being caused by external terrorist groups that have nothing to lose by fighting and everything to lose if we succeed. I think we can't afford to not win this thing.

[Sargent Anderson]

Originally Posted by Mad Monk

I believe the man said the topic was:

"Pro action in Iraq
VS
Anti action in Iraq"

Not, pro Bush gov't or not.

Aaaanywaayyyy,

I'm for the action. I think it needed to be done for many reasons (and regardless of the existence of WMDs). The regime needed changing and we're getting it done (we meaning the U.S. and others). Granted, there have been some rough spots, but I think it will turn out better in the end.

I hate to see our soldiers dying as much as anyone else, but I refuse to believe that they are dying in vain. I firmly believe that "Joe Iraqi" wants this over with as much as we do and that most of the trouble is being caused by external terrorist groups that have nothing to lose by fighting and everything to lose if we succeed. I think we can't afford to not win this thing.

Bush and the govt are tied into it sooo...

And if the regime needed to change that much then why are the Iraq people fighting so hard for their country back?

[lego]

because they dont know what freedom is, they are afraid of it

[urseus]

I dont think its a simple as "those hethans dont know what freedom is and it is out job to force them to accept it".

They want to live the way other muslims do, with the church still heavily meshed with the state. It is harsh. Thats true. Western civilisations seperated from the church a long time ago. But its a completly new way of living that they dont want and dont feel comfortable with. Its the same as aliens coming down and forcing you to live in a way that they feel is freedom, and that you are living in opression.

[Sargent Anderson]

Originally Posted by lego

because they dont know what freedom is, they are afraid of it

You never lived in Iraq so you can't say that

How are they free now anyway with US troops busting into homes at night and aresting any one who is a suspect?(which is everyone)

And to urs the western church is meshed with the state so it is the opposite if the muslim way

[Grumman]

Pro.

Saddam was bad. I don't think we should have hyped up the WMD theory as a reason to invade, but I do believe there are WMDs there. It's fact that he had them. Show me where they went. I don't know... they world is just so fucked up.

[lego]

Originally Posted by Sargent Anderson

You never lived in Iraq so you can't say that

How are they free now anyway with US troops busting into homes at night and aresting any one who is a suspect?(which is everyone)

And to urs the western church is meshed with the state so it is the opposite if the muslim way

i can say that because i know people over there and people who have died over there and thats what they said the people were like.. almost afraid of freedom.

[Grumman]

Freedom is a completely new concept to just about every Iraqi. If you lived your life always being oppressed, then you were able to do so much more, it would be frightening. I'm sure lots of people are afraid they may even still get in trouble for doing things that were once illegal under the Saddam regime. I think it would be difficult to handle their new oppurtunities while there is still significant turmoil throughout the country.

[Grayhawk]

How are they free now anyway with US troops busting into homes at night and aresting any one who is a suspect?(which is everyone)

Well hey, atleast we're not busting into homes and KILLING anyone we suspect, atleast we give them a chance to defend themselves. Saddam would have just had there head chopped off and have it sent to him on a plate, literally. IMO, the Iraqis are afraid of change, even if their life was terrible before we freed them. Its the liberal media that makes such a big deal about the small uprisings in Iraq, you dont hear much about how happy alot of those Iraqis are now because of US/Briton and others.

My brother (22) is in the army, he was in Iraq till last August, my family and I went through some terrible times hoping that he would make it through the war, yet we still think that this war on Iraq, no, I should say this war on Saddam and his regeim, was very much worth the cost of helping those Iraqi citizens.

You dont hear much about how many people SUPPORT the war, but you sure hear alot about people complaining about it, they say that about 5 million Americans dont support the war, do realize that thats only like what, 2% of Americas population! But you still dont hear about the other 98% of the Americans that DO support the war. Maddening I tell you MADDENING!

[urseus]

Originally Posted by Sargent Anderson

And to urs the western church is meshed with the state so it is the opposite if the muslim way

No no, the western world had a seperation of state from the church. This is why you dont have eclesiastical(sp?) courts anymore.

The church and the bible were the foundations of law, but the law is no longer bound to it. This is why in muslim countrys you have laws that are strictly in line with with the koran. Biblical law is far hasher than man made law, which is why you get beheadings for people who have affairs with other women in muslim countrys.

[Sarge]

by the word you I don't mean YOU literally, just read.

Seperation from church and state, now thats nice. Its all a bred government follow the leader go to school and learn society from that anyways.

As far as what they want. Who knows what they (Iraqi's) want. Who's to say what they want and whats in their best interest.

Are you to tell me, that just because you in your pompous think state makes right?. Where does it say the strongest country makes lesser countries follow in their manner.?

Ahhhh, Nazi Germany is one example.

Here's another. Pray tell one group of people thinks that another group of people should "benefit" from their viewpoint. Group A doesn't politcally like Group b. Group B is obviously smaller and appears to amass things that Might hurt group a. Group B does things to hurt group c. Group A then uses that as a purpose to invade group b. Does that make group b right.

Yeah cmon. So what does that say. What if group A China/russia, doesn't like Group b, America mosing into everything all the time. Group B, goes into everything headstrong and tells people what to do.
Eventually, group A will say, WTF, lets bring down group B. It already happens wheverver we go, so who's to say it won't happen against us. Disease and strife, withing and without brought down Rome, are we any better.

So Saddam was bad, granted its nice he's out, but what about the other countries that are bad? Shall we police up all them? Its nice to say this and that about things when you have no argument or place against each. I wonder how many of you talking actually have a place in whats happening? Does might make right? If it does, Nazi Germany would be in place. What will it do when we piss off every Saudi country known to man then make?

They are tribal, we are not. They are more religious and known to their ways then we are. When we approach them and wander and patrol in thier streets we appear to lack appeciation for their god. Its all people knowledge. Until you've seen a kevlar with bullet holes, pictures or letters fromt the actual place it happened I doubt any of you would say half of what you do. Take a look at guys that have glass eyballs, that are 19 years old, a first sergeant who took a mortar round a person with his shoulder stapled in 15 spots and another person who limps for the rest of his life. Are these peoples democracy more important than our own people's lives? They live in dung, and have not self import to make to themselves what we make for our own