Patch Testing... how it happens.

EA_One_Eye · 04-22-2003, 05:48 PM

Okay, alot of people have said "why don't you get it right the first time?" I'll explain a little how things work.

The Development Team works for a few years to come up with a game. Now remember, these are coders who are working on individual parts of the game. The odds are they don't do anything other than test the area they are working on (the need for testers). And of course they won't be trying to do wonderful stuff like expacking to the cliffs in Omaha Beach. So...they have a rough game, but not enough money to finish or to market it. They look for a Publisher.

Now, the Publisher assigns a production team to the game, as well as Marketing. Marketing gets their info from the Production team, and they go off and do their thing...even if it isn't much. Production figures out how much time it will require to finish the game, how much money, programmers, etc. All of this happens 2-3 years before the game even goes to Testing. Once they have a rough Alpha, maybe 4 months from the final deadline, it goes to Testing.

And that is where all hell breaks loose. We play the game, break the game, cheat the game, and basically pound the game to dust. Programmers fix the bugs, we find more. Those get fixed, we find more. We work 12-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week for weeks on end (this is no joke) as we get closer to Finalling the game. This goes one for a while until Production says "shit, we are going to need a patch!" After that, the important, MAJOR issues get fixed, minor tuning and such get put off to a patch.

The game ships with issues....the community is in an uproar, the Testing and Programming teams get some much needed rest. And then the patch work begins....Because we have to be careful about the size of the patch, the Programmers can only work on so much. And the same cycle starts all over again, a dead line is given, certain goals for this patch are set out, and we try to get all the "current" issues handled. Then the patch is released.

And guess what? The cycle starts all over again for the next patch! While this is going on, if the game is a big enough hit, part of the Programming team breaks off to make expansion packs. Why? Because money is needed to fix other things and to promote the game.

So...that's a rough outline of what it takes to be a Tester/Patch Tester. It's a shitty world, but hey...it's a job!

BPP · 04-22-2003, 06:00 PM

Very interesting post!

Now what is it that you do there? (I don't feel like sifting thru a bunch of posts as I am sure you already mentioned)

As far as the costs of development of expansions and patches, maybe if they were to release an SDK to the public, much of the work of new material can be done by the mod community for free. I am thinking of Half Life in this case...

However, if the mod community is able to create better expansions then the developer, (I think Desert Combat in its 0.3 alpha is better than RtR, just my opinion

) then EA won't be justified in charging money for a subpar expansion pack.

Could this be the main reason they have not/will not release the SDK to the public? Are they afraid of what the mod community can do not only to their product, but to their profit margin as well?

What are your feelings on this issue EA One Eye?

Gort · 04-22-2003, 06:07 PM

I'll volunteer to be a tester if needs be

EA_One_Eye · 04-22-2003, 06:25 PM

Well BPP, I am a Tester, of course. Check my profile, that should explain a lot.

DICE wants to retain control of the SDK for a while. There is a solid reason, which I cannot give you, but it is not to keep the modding community from making full conversions. Look at DC... and yes, I like it better than RTR myself.

It would be great if the community made conversions and expansion packs, but then if the community did that and left EA to patch testing...well, there would be no justification for patch support. REMEMBER....You have to realize this from a management point of view as well as from a Gamer point of view. The two are completely seperate and totally different. What makes sense to one DOES NOT make sense to the other.

Gort, if we could take on volunteers, we would. The Beta tests were so successful that if anything, we'd want to repeat that. And who knows, if we do have another, I'd be sure to announce it here.

English · 04-22-2003, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EA_One_Eye

DICE wants to retain control of the SDK for a while. There is a solid reason, which I cannot give you

Money, we just established that in the other thread.

Quote:

It would be great if the community made conversions and expansion packs, but then if the community did that and left EA to patch testing...well, there would be no justification for patch support.

hmm.... Have u checked the mod section? People are making conversions.

Why no justification for patch support? EA made the game, you could entice more people into the game by letting modders use the sdk. Nobody knows the code like the dice team. So they are the best people to patch it.

And why do u need money from the expansion packs, people are still buying the game. Imagine how many extra copies have been sold because of the DC team? U know, i wouldnt be surprised if u had made more money, from the DC team, by them attracting new buyers, than by you selling the rtr expansion.

After all, they have to buy the full game if they want to play DC, thats twice the amount of rtr.

And imagine how much better it would be, if they had the sdk, and not only that, how better the other mods would be too. All that brings in more people, thats more money for u, and there is ur money to fund the patches.

Plus u could save money, coss u wouldnt need to develop the expansions. U make money, by doing nothing !

EA_One_Eye · 04-22-2003, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

Money, we just established that in the other thread.

English, this has been a thread arguement for months all over the net. If you want to believe money, go ahead. The reason why I can't say isn't because of that, but if I devulge plans, I am fired. Period. So if money satisfies your question, the fine...money.

English · 04-22-2003, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EA_One_Eye

Quote:

Originally Posted by English

Money, we just established that in the other thread.

English, this has been a thread arguement for months all over the net. If you want to believe money, go ahead. The reason why I can't say isn't because of that, but if I devulge plans, I am fired. Period. So if money satisfies your question, the fine...money.

Now come on. Money is the bottom line, whatever other reason u might give for it. You want to make more expansions, and release a new game.

If you release the sdk, then the community could update the game as they wished, and EA would loose control.

In EA's eyes
Less control == Less money.

BPP · 04-22-2003, 07:00 PM

I am thinking from a management point of view.

Everyone here knows about Half Life and Counterstrike. My thinking is that if EA were to follow the example set by Valve by fully embracing the mod community, perhaps BF1942 and Desert Combat will enjoy the same amount of enjoyment and longetivity as the aforementioned HL and CS.

From my point of view, (correct me if I am wrong), the only original material regarding Half Life put out by Valve are their updates to TFC, and the basic game itself. Two expansions were outsourced to other companies, and they have given official support to two mods (CS and Day of Defeat). Behind the scenes, the Valve marketing department is still spending money advertising Half Life and their various expansions and "official" mods. Half Life is still being sold at retail some five years after initial release. I firmly believe that if not for user made mods such as CS and Day of Defeat, Half Life would have slowly faded out a few years ago. For its continued success, I feel that Valve really owes it to the mod community.

I would love to see this happen for BF1942, which blows away Half Life, CS, or Day of Defeat in every aspect. But in order for it to have a lasting impact, I feel that they need to cooperate more with the mod community. There is already competition looming on the horizon (Soldner, OpFlashpoint 2) and unless BF1942 is able to keep its competetive edge and sustain it, then the BF franchise will slowly fade out.

Now that Half Life 2 has been officially announced, I would not be too surprised to hear some news about Team Fortress 2, and possibly Counterstrike 2 (rumored to be in production already). If all of those are released within the next year, and all the BF1942 community has to look forward to is the Secret Weapons expansion pack and the 1.4 patch, then I think we might be seeing the sun set on BF1942 in the near future.

Unless....Battlefield Vietnam is for real. But that is another story.

yetix · 04-22-2003, 07:01 PM

hey One_Eye here's a good question for ya:
What setup/comp/machine settings do you test on? what do you use as a standard to show say how well those new textures or other improvements play?
logic would say use a lower end common setup, but i don't see that really entering into Battlefield 1942's testing, being such a newer engine and game all together.

TNT · 04-22-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Now come on. Money is the bottom line, whatever other reason u might give for it. You want to make more expansions, and release a new game.

If you release the sdk, then the community could update the game as they wished, and EA would loose control.

In EA's eyes
Less control == Less money.

Okay, I think that's enough arguing from this topic. This is because if One_Eye cannot reveal the facts because he has committed to a deal, fine. There's no reason to speculate it more.

PxR|GrimJack · 04-22-2003, 07:17 PM

I understand perfectly One_Eye

I used to work for Tyson Foods (the chicken ppl), they were in the process of putting in a new shipping tracking system

we were one of the test plants......when the MIS ppl came in to brief us, I listened to what they wanted us to do & when they asked for questions I had one

"So basically you want us to tear the thing up?"

my plant manager had a FIT on the spot...almost screaming...threatening me with being pulled out of hte office if I tore anything up

the MIS reps smiled....calmed him down & told him that was EXACTLY what they wanted me to do....that unless they knew where the flaws were, they couldnt fix them

the system went active on Mon afternoon.....it went DOWN Wed AM....for the next 8 weeks it was up & down like a yo-yo

BUT when it went corperate wide? it hasnt failed in like 6 years.....testers try & tear the code up.......

no matter how hard you guys work, the community at large will always find bugs you dont....there are more us & and we are driven harder to find each advantage in the game

this is exactly why I dont complain when there is a bug as LONG as they are looking at fixing it

thanks for the feedback One_Eye, and in case not enough tell you, we all really do appreiciate you posting here

PxR|GrimJack · 04-22-2003, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BPP

I am thinking from a management point of view.

Everyone here knows about Half Life and Counterstrike. My thinking is that if EA were to follow the example set by Valve by fully embracing the mod community, perhaps BF1942 and Desert Combat will enjoy the same amount of enjoyment and longetivity as the aforementioned HL and CS.

I'd agree with you except for one thing......

offering CS as a good example of how to do ANYTHING is a bad comparison...yes they are modded easily....they are also CHEATED easily,
to the point there sprouted an entire industry of anti cheat software BASED on HL/CS

do we really wnt that in BF42?

TNT · 04-22-2003, 07:22 PM

Yeah GrimJack. Some people don't get it here how lucky we are when we get a person from EA here to answer our questions.

Very lucky.

TEXAS NIGHTMARE · 04-22-2003, 07:24 PM

Yeah One Eye your help, information, and listening to our ideas and thoughts is very much appreciated here.

BPP · 04-22-2003, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PxR|GrimJack

offering CS as a good example of how to do ANYTHING is a bad comparison...yes they are modded easily....they are also CHEATED easily,
to the point there sprouted an entire industry of anti cheat software BASED on HL/CS

do we really wnt that in BF42?

Besides the cheats, as that will happen in any multiplayer game (some more frequently than others), I think that concerning the Half Life franchise, Valve has done an EXCELLENT job at milking that cow for all that its worth. Nobody can argue that point!

EA One Eye: I appreciate your postings on this board as well! Seeing as how you have more "insider" info than we do, I was just curious as to what you think about my comments. I'm not asking for any priveliged info or ranting about the situation of the BF community, I am just curious as to what your own personal opinions are.

Thanks!

PxR|GrimJack · 04-22-2003, 09:40 PM

milking it yes......but at the COST of all the cheats

yes there are cheats in any game, we cant stop them, just slow them down

the more "open" the code, the easier it is to make the cheats

I agree they make a fortune (off a game I uninstalled within a week DUE to the cheats)....but are we as the BF community willing to pay that price here for some pretty skins?

sorry, I'm not

Vizior · 04-22-2003, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PxR|GrimJack

milking it yes......but at the COST of all the cheats

yes there are cheats in any game, we cant stop them, just slow them down

the more "open" the code, the easier it is to make the cheats

I agree they make a fortune (off a game I uninstalled within a week DUE to the cheats)....but are we as the BF community willing to pay that price here for some pretty skins?

sorry, I'm not

AMEN! Bring on 1.4!

urseus · 04-22-2003, 10:52 PM

Cool thread.

Whatever the reason for withholding the tools, even if at the bottom it is money, its more than understandable. Half life was saved by the moding comunity, but that was like 3 or 4 years after it was released. This game is still pretty new.

Cpl. Reynolds · 04-22-2003, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urseus

Cool thread.

Whatever the reason for withholding the tools, even if at the bottom it is money, its more than understandable. Half life was saved by the moding comunity, but that was like 3 or 4 years after it was released. This game is still pretty new.

Exactly, same point I wanted to make. CS didn't come along six months after Half Life was released, it was four years later. And what did Valve do all those years between? Why, they sold expansion packs. How caddish of them!

BPP · 04-22-2003, 11:52 PM

Quote:

CS didn't come along six months after Half Life was released, it was four years later

Actually, I think it came out much sooner than four years after initial HL release. I remember downloading and playing CS beta 2.something a long long time ago, but my point is that I remember playing CS in some form not too long after I bought Half Life.

Who knows where the future will take BF1942. Frankly I am amazed at what the Desert Combat team has pulled off WITHOUT an SDK. Worst case scenario, we will see some great mods with or without official EA/DICE assistance. Its just that knowing what people have done so far without any tools makes me really excited about what can be accomplished with the correct development tools.

As far as cheating is concerned, hopefully 1.4 will take care of most of that. My biggest concern is not with cheaters anyways, its all the dumbshits who camp airfields and crash planes and TK that bother me most of all.

04-22-2003, 05:48 PM	#1 (permalink)
EA_One_Eye Corporal Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 195	Patch Testing... how it happens. Okay, alot of people have said "why don't you get it right the first time?" I'll explain a little how things work. The Development Team works for a few years to come up with a game. Now remember, these are coders who are working on individual parts of the game. The odds are they don't do anything other than test the area they are working on (the need for testers). And of course they won't be trying to do wonderful stuff like expacking to the cliffs in Omaha Beach. So...they have a rough game, but not enough money to finish or to market it. They look for a Publisher. Now, the Publisher assigns a production team to the game, as well as Marketing. Marketing gets their info from the Production team, and they go off and do their thing...even if it isn't much. Production figures out how much time it will require to finish the game, how much money, programmers, etc. All of this happens 2-3 years before the game even goes to Testing. Once they have a rough Alpha, maybe 4 months from the final deadline, it goes to Testing. And that is where all hell breaks loose. We play the game, break the game, cheat the game, and basically pound the game to dust. Programmers fix the bugs, we find more. Those get fixed, we find more. We work 12-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week for weeks on end (this is no joke) as we get closer to Finalling the game. This goes one for a while until Production says "shit, we are going to need a patch!" After that, the important, MAJOR issues get fixed, minor tuning and such get put off to a patch. The game ships with issues....the community is in an uproar, the Testing and Programming teams get some much needed rest. And then the patch work begins....Because we have to be careful about the size of the patch, the Programmers can only work on so much. And the same cycle starts all over again, a dead line is given, certain goals for this patch are set out, and we try to get all the "current" issues handled. Then the patch is released. And guess what? The cycle starts all over again for the next patch! While this is going on, if the game is a big enough hit, part of the Programming team breaks off to make expansion packs. Why? Because money is needed to fix other things and to promote the game. So...that's a rough outline of what it takes to be a Tester/Patch Tester. It's a shitty world, but hey...it's a job! __________________ Cya L8r, [EUG-r] SKINZ

04-22-2003, 06:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
Gort Warrant Officer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Southern BC, Canada Posts: 825	I'll volunteer to be a tester if needs be __________________ 8)´

04-22-2003, 06:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
EA_One_Eye Corporal Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 195	Well BPP, I am a Tester, of course. Check my profile, that should explain a lot. DICE wants to retain control of the SDK for a while. There is a solid reason, which I cannot give you, but it is not to keep the modding community from making full conversions. Look at DC... and yes, I like it better than RTR myself. It would be great if the community made conversions and expansion packs, but then if the community did that and left EA to patch testing...well, there would be no justification for patch support. REMEMBER....You have to realize this from a management point of view as well as from a Gamer point of view. The two are completely seperate and totally different. What makes sense to one DOES NOT make sense to the other. Gort, if we could take on volunteers, we would. The Beta tests were so successful that if anything, we'd want to repeat that. And who knows, if we do have another, I'd be sure to announce it here. __________________ Cya L8r, [EUG-r] SKINZ

04-22-2003, 07:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
yetix Major Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bob's Panzer Garage, BFE Arkansas Posts: 3,191	hey One_Eye here's a good question for ya: What setup/comp/machine settings do you test on? what do you use as a standard to show say how well those new textures or other improvements play? logic would say use a lower end common setup, but i don't see that really entering into Battlefield 1942's testing, being such a newer engine and game all together. __________________

04-22-2003, 07:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
PxR\|GrimJack Sergeant Major Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 647	I understand perfectly One_Eye I used to work for Tyson Foods (the chicken ppl), they were in the process of putting in a new shipping tracking system we were one of the test plants......when the MIS ppl came in to brief us, I listened to what they wanted us to do & when they asked for questions I had one "So basically you want us to tear the thing up?" my plant manager had a FIT on the spot...almost screaming...threatening me with being pulled out of hte office if I tore anything up the MIS reps smiled....calmed him down & told him that was EXACTLY what they wanted me to do....that unless they knew where the flaws were, they couldnt fix them the system went active on Mon afternoon.....it went DOWN Wed AM....for the next 8 weeks it was up & down like a yo-yo BUT when it went corperate wide? it hasnt failed in like 6 years.....testers try & tear the code up....... no matter how hard you guys work, the community at large will always find bugs you dont....there are more us & and we are driven harder to find each advantage in the game this is exactly why I dont complain when there is a bug as LONG as they are looking at fixing it thanks for the feedback One_Eye, and in case not enough tell you, we all really do appreiciate you posting here __________________

04-22-2003, 06:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
BPP Sergeant Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 404	Very interesting post! Now what is it that you do there? (I don't feel like sifting thru a bunch of posts as I am sure you already mentioned) As far as the costs of development of expansions and patches, maybe if they were to release an SDK to the public, much of the work of new material can be done by the mod community for free. I am thinking of Half Life in this case... However, if the mod community is able to create better expansions then the developer, (I think Desert Combat in its 0.3 alpha is better than RtR, just my opinion ) then EA won't be justified in charging money for a subpar expansion pack. Could this be the main reason they have not/will not release the SDK to the public? Are they afraid of what the mod community can do not only to their product, but to their profit margin as well? What are your feelings on this issue EA One Eye?

04-22-2003, 07:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
BPP Sergeant Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 404	I am thinking from a management point of view. Everyone here knows about Half Life and Counterstrike. My thinking is that if EA were to follow the example set by Valve by fully embracing the mod community, perhaps BF1942 and Desert Combat will enjoy the same amount of enjoyment and longetivity as the aforementioned HL and CS. From my point of view, (correct me if I am wrong), the only original material regarding Half Life put out by Valve are their updates to TFC, and the basic game itself. Two expansions were outsourced to other companies, and they have given official support to two mods (CS and Day of Defeat). Behind the scenes, the Valve marketing department is still spending money advertising Half Life and their various expansions and "official" mods. Half Life is still being sold at retail some five years after initial release. I firmly believe that if not for user made mods such as CS and Day of Defeat, Half Life would have slowly faded out a few years ago. For its continued success, I feel that Valve really owes it to the mod community. I would love to see this happen for BF1942, which blows away Half Life, CS, or Day of Defeat in every aspect. But in order for it to have a lasting impact, I feel that they need to cooperate more with the mod community. There is already competition looming on the horizon (Soldner, OpFlashpoint 2) and unless BF1942 is able to keep its competetive edge and sustain it, then the BF franchise will slowly fade out. Now that Half Life 2 has been officially announced, I would not be too surprised to hear some news about Team Fortress 2, and possibly Counterstrike 2 (rumored to be in production already). If all of those are released within the next year, and all the BF1942 community has to look forward to is the Secret Weapons expansion pack and the 1.4 patch, then I think we might be seeing the sun set on BF1942 in the near future. Unless....Battlefield Vietnam is for real. But that is another story.

04-22-2003, 07:22 PM	#13 (permalink)
TNT Second Lieutenant Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The land of Thousands of Lakes Posts: 1,350	Yeah GrimJack. Some people don't get it here how lucky we are when we get a person from EA here to answer our questions. Very lucky. __________________ ~Remember drink yer milk kids!

04-22-2003, 07:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
TEXAS NIGHTMARE First Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Antonio, Tx Posts: 1,572	Yeah One Eye your help, information, and listening to our ideas and thoughts is very much appreciated here. __________________

04-22-2003, 09:40 PM	#16 (permalink)
PxR\|GrimJack Sergeant Major Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 647	milking it yes......but at the COST of all the cheats yes there are cheats in any game, we cant stop them, just slow them down the more "open" the code, the easier it is to make the cheats I agree they make a fortune (off a game I uninstalled within a week DUE to the cheats)....but are we as the BF community willing to pay that price here for some pretty skins? sorry, I'm not __________________

04-22-2003, 10:52 PM	#18 (permalink)
urseus Colonel Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia. Posts: 6,073	Cool thread. Whatever the reason for withholding the tools, even if at the bottom it is money, its more than understandable. Half life was saved by the moding comunity, but that was like 3 or 4 years after it was released. This game is still pretty new. __________________