campers - Page 6

Winged_Nazgul · 02-25-2003, 05:19 PM

LOL. I do admit I wish I read as much real literature as I did in my youth. Much of the "reading" I do now comes in the form of these pointless forum threads. But I have read every word of this thread (I admit I'm a masochist) and I have yet to see anything approaching a logical argument from spawn whiners.

McBain · 02-25-2003, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winged_Nazgul

I have yet to see anything approaching a logical argument from spawn whiners.

Funny...we would say same about spawn campers...

Gort · 02-25-2003, 05:28 PM

I guess we need a Geneva Convention rules for BF42. Ya rite.

Spawn camping (as bad as some people might think it is) is a valid tactic. It's not enjoyable being on the receiving end, no arguement there. The object of war (be it real or a game) is to defeat the enemy thru any means possible which means anything goes that is permitted by the game without exploiting bugs or using cheats (including the in game wall hack).

Okay, I'm talking uncapturable bases and making the assumption that there are no capturable flags held by your team. These uncapable bases have huge spawn radius so it's unlikely that your entire team will be killed off with a single gernade, arty shell or even a full volly from a B17. Rather than whine about it, do something. What's the old addage "when the going gets tough, the tough get going"? If it means grabbing a kit that you aren't as skilled as your normal kit choice, tough noogies. Become an AT or Engy if that's what it takes to get rid of the intruder. It's not likely you are going to be too successful taking out a tank in your base as an assault, medic or scout.

An alternative to the hangar camper is to ignore him unless you are intent on either getting rid of him or using a plane. Think about it, if you can live without planes, which is quite possible, then leave him. He isn't doing anything other than preventing you from flying. Flying isn't the end all - be all of this game. If no one tries to dislodge him, then no one gets wasted and he sits idle causing no damage to players, allowing them to get out of the base and head off to cap a flag allowing your team mates an alternate spot to re-enter the game. If you are not in the campers field of fire, then no harm. Undoubtedly after a relatively short time frame, he will get bored and leave the hangar, that's when he becomes vulnerable again.

No one seems to take any initiative to stop base campers from getting into the base in the first place. I have often delegated myself as 'base sentry' and will be an engy, dropping mines and detpacks at entrances to the main base. Then I will patrol (ok camp if you must) my own base with a tank or something with additional firepower than what I carry in my kit, watching for intruders by ground or air.

I do agree that hangars or repair pads in an uncapturable base should not repair enemy equipment for the same reasons others have mentioned. It's not like an axis mechanic would work on an allied controlled vehicle and vica versa.

Cpl. Reynolds · 02-25-2003, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBain

The main argument spawn campers have is that it is possible, so we should shut up and put up with it...(

Big round of applause. You have fallen into the same "generalize everyone" category that so many people complain about. Those of us who are arguing FOR spawn camping as a legitimate tactic are NOT necessarily spawn campers. I use it rarely, and usually only after I've been on the receiving end during a game. I have better things to do then sit in a tank and kill people who are spawning, but I don't begrudge someone else from doing it if that's their thing. And I WILL do it, just as at times I HAVE fallen back to let them have a chance to spawn and break out. But I'm tired of folks attacking people for using perfectly valid tactics just because THEY don't choose to use them. That's your choose, kiddies, learn to live with it and the consequences of playing against those who don't agree with you.

I'll give you plenty of good reasons, most of which spawn whiners will ignore yet again.

1) Base campers can be easily repelled, it just takes some effort. Apparently you don't like a real challenge, you want the other side to sit around playing tiddlywinks while your team gets your act together. I'm there to have fun and PLAY, not waste my time waiting for them to figure out how to play.

2) Denying the enemy their equipment and forcing them into an entirely defensive stance is highly beneficial to the team and helps you win.

3) Killing the enemy takes away their tickets, which is the goal of most games.

4) Both 2 and 3 are about winning. Yes, I want to win. Don't you? I just don't whine when my team loses, I congratulate the other team and try to kick them the next time.

5) It's fun for me, even when I'm on the receiving end of a big base camp whooping. Because it's fun to try and outsmart the enemy, get them out of your base and then return the favor. Again... you don't apparently like this challenge, but that doesn't mean it's not FUN. YOU don't think it's fun.

6) Whining about spawn camping is no different then consevatives whining about the liberal media. It's just a way of deflecting attention from the fact that your team blew chunks so bad you got corraled into an untenable position, rather then trying to find a way out of it.

7) What YOU think is "fair" does not coincide with what *I* think is fair.

8) It is the fault of the team on the receiving end of the whooping for putting themselves in that position, not the fault of the other team. Therefore, the other team should not have to suddenly "back off" just so you guys can regroup. How is that "fair" to THEM? They worked hard to back you into a corner, suck it up and take your medicine. Or find a way to push them back and start taking back spawn points.

9) Most "uncappable" bases have spawn points spread around a good sized area. It's impossible to monitor them all, therefore it is impossible to be considered camping since people can spawn, can attack and/or get away if they choose. There IS NO SPAWN CAMPING because you CAN"T CAMP ALL THE SPAWNS.

'Nuff said. Enjoy arguing about this guys, I've got a map to go work on *grin*.

Brutus · 02-25-2003, 05:58 PM

'Spawn whiners'. I always find it funny that people need to put a negative conantation on a view that opposes them. This is what people do when they are not able to effectively get their ideas across. It is also very sad.

I am not whining. I just said that I don't like it. To me it makes the game less fun, and even less realistic. A soldier would not go into an enemies rear echolon, lay down in a bunker and kill people as the re-spawned.

'It is part of the game.' So is the wall hack. Game paly changes depending on who is running the game. Just because it is possible does not mean that it needs to be done. Anyone ever play monopoly and get money when you landed on Free Parking? If I remember correctly that is not in the rules.

Winged, what I said about your reading skills was directed to this thread, not in general.

Reynolds, you can site here and call people names all day long, but in the end I don't know what you are trying to accomplish. Some people think that people that need to hide in a bunker waiting for people to respawn is lame, others don't and think that it is a 'skill'. No one here is right or wrong, it is just opinions. People that think spawn camping uncapables is lame are the same skill level of player as the ones that don't. I can just as easily go into a spawn a kill people re-spawning as you, trust me.

PxR|GrimJack · 02-25-2003, 06:00 PM

maybe I missed something........wtf are you talking about "not capping a flag"?

my impression was we were discussing "camping" a NON CAPABLE flag/spawn point

I still say its simple part of the game & if they do it they are helping their team by destroying enemy supplies

no its not "real", but then......the concept of it having to be "fun" for the loosing team is a bit unrealistic too isnt it?

McBain · 02-25-2003, 06:12 PM

Reynolds, I could argue against every point you have posted, but tbh... I can't be arsed. This argument is going no where. So for me to close I would like to make a few points -

1) Just because 'you can beat them if you try' doesn't mean we like to have to do it. You can beat wall hackers if your good enough, so lets remove all anti-cheat software shall we?

2) In this post I have only said I don't like it when they sit on repair bases and spawn camp. No one has yet managed to oppose the 'it's our base, why would we repair the enemy?' arguement, so I am assuming you can't.

3) We have also only said we don't like it when it's an uncappable flag and it's the last one, so please stop giving the arguement 'spawn somewhere else'.

4) I have never moaned or whined on a server about spawn camping

Like I say, this isn't going anywhere, no-one is even crediting the opposing arguement with valid points...so it's kinda pointless.

Brutus · 02-25-2003, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PxR|GrimJack

maybe I missed something........wtf are you talking about "not capping a flag"?

my impression was we were discussing "camping" a NON CAPABLE flag/spawn point

I still say its simple part of the game & if they do it they are helping their team by destroying enemy supplies

no its not "real", but then......the concept of it having to be "fun" for the loosing team is a bit unrealistic too isnt it?

Some people like to site outside the radius of a flag, the radius that allows you to cap it. I am Example:

Axis sits just outside a capable flag that is held by the Allies. The allies can spawn there. The axis guy just waits for them to respawn and kills them, he is merely looking for kills, nothing else.

Does that clear it up?

Cpl. Reynolds · 02-25-2003, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brutus

'It is part of the game.' So is the wall hack.

No, the wall hack is not. The wall hack is a diagnostic tool that was NOT intended to get into the final release of patch 1.3, which Dice has made clear since they intend to remove it. "Camping" is a tactic which has never been changed from day one and which is part of overall gameplay, not some piece of code you can learn to type in that gives you an advantage. And I can't force someone to turn off their wall hack, but I can certainly prevent people from camping the base by finding ways of getting rid of them.

Quote:

Just because it is possible does not mean that it needs to be done.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I don't like paying taxes... maybe I should ask the government to stop taking away my money. Think they are going to listen?

Quote:

Reynolds, you can site here and call people names all day long

Sure. I believe in respond in kind to the same comments directed at those of us who argue the "pro" position. Previous posts have deemed us "spawn campers" and "lame" and "unskilled" among other terms. I hardly think my use of the word "whiner" even begins to compare. They are whining when they could be DOING something in the game to prevent it.

In the future, please make sure that if you wish to upbraid someone for their use of certain terminology that you do the same to those who argue the same side of the position as you do. Otherwise it just serves to undermine your position on the topic of name calling.

Cpl. Reynolds · 02-25-2003, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBain

2) In this post I have only said I don't like it when they sit on repair bases and spawn camp. No one has yet managed to oppose the 'it's our base, why would we repair the enemy?' arguement, so I am assuming you can't.

If a tank rolls up to you, points a 75 mm cannon at your head and says "fix me"... are you going to turn them down?

There, consider it successfully opposed, no mechanic in his right mind is going to refuse such a gentile request to fix the enemy's rig.

Actually I've often said in the past they should change this. But I'm not majorly concerned about it since they are still relatively easy to take out if you know how. So there you go... I've agreed with one of your positions, albeit not completely.

Quote:

3) We have also only said we don't like it when it's an uncappable flag and it's the last one, so please stop giving the arguement 'spawn somewhere else'.

Why? It's a valid argument. Go cap a flag and spawn somewhere else. What's so hard about understanding that? I do that ALL the freaking time when my base is being camped because its the last one and uncappable. Geesh... why are you guys refusing to admit that going to cap another flag and spawning elsewhere is a valid choice?

Quote:

Like I say, this isn't going anywhere, no-one is even crediting the opposing arguement with valid points...so it's kinda pointless.

Yes, you never do acknowledge the strength of the opposing arguments.

McBain · 02-25-2003, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpl. Reynolds

Quote:

3) We have also only said we don't like it when it's an uncappable flag and it's the last one, so please stop giving the arguement 'spawn somewhere else'.

Why? It's a valid argument. Go cap a flag and spawn somewhere else. What's so hard about understanding that? I do that ALL the freaking time when my base is being camped because its the last one and uncappable. Geesh... why are you guys refusing to admit that going to cap another flag and spawning elsewhere is a valid choice?

This is why I am not going to bother with the arguement. We say 'killing people before they can move having only just spawned is not in good spirit.' You say 'cap another flag and spawn there'. How do we do this if we can't get out of our base? Yes, yes, yes, yes it can be done if we try... Not good enough response for me.

Also, no, I wouldn't keep repairing the tank while it continued to blow away my team mates/fellow soldiers...so it's still unanswered (with a valid arguement)

Cpl. Reynolds · 02-25-2003, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBain

How do we do this if we can't get out of our base? Yes, yes, yes, yes it can be done if we try... Not good enough response for me.

Again.. you are the one to refuse to admit valid arguments.

Why can't you get out of your base? Again I say, "I DO IT ALL THE TIME." There is no way for them to watch all the spawn points, and the second I spawn I run, hide, crawl, grab a scout car... whatever it takes to get away from the base. If I can do it... why can't you? That's a failure on your part, and continuing to use circular reasoning doesn't change that fact. Just because YOU can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. I can't pilot a jet plane, but others can.

Quote:

Also, no, I wouldn't keep repairing the tank while it continued to blow away my team mates/fellow soldiers...so it's still unanswered (with a valid arguement)

Apparently the definition of sarcasm is lost on you. Lighten up a bit, learn how to enjoy life a little more.

improvius · 02-25-2003, 07:31 PM

The magic-nano-repair-bot-elves simply don't care which side you're on. They repair vehicles for the pure ecstasy it brings them when they do so. Of course, they have been genetically engineered to be like this.

-Imp

[spelling edit]

Dr. Boom · 02-25-2003, 07:38 PM

Ok here is another point that I dont think that anyont has made yet. People are sying that camping is allowed by the game so it is ok to do.

Well what about TKilling. Its in the game so is it ok to do? Just because your teammates dont like it does it mean it is wrong? It is the same argument as spawn killing. (not that I am for TKing, that is the lowest form of player)

And yeah we do consider people who do it to be cowards. I remember back in the day of playing Quake III, if someone was cought spawn camping they would become a laughing stock, and nobody would want them in the game. What is so heroic or skillful about sitting in one place and blasting people as they spawn. Man that takes so much skill. Why dont they just take the damn flag? I mean what is the point of doing it? It is not to try and prevent other players from taking the flag because the spawn camper never moves. They just stay in the same spot and fire away. They are not defending anything. I thought the point of a conquest game was to take flags, not to rack up frags. This game is not Quake or Counterstrike. Kill points mean nothing to me. What matters is taking the flag to stop the enemy from spawning there. That is what wins battles, not selfish racking up of kill points.

[BFN] Tuco · 02-25-2003, 07:40 PM

Only my 2 cents worth, but I'd have to agree with Reynolds. For one thing...
"How do we do this if we can't get out of our base? Yes, yes, yes, yes it can be done if we try... Not good enough response for me."

So you're point is that it's too challenging to escape the base when someone is camping? No one likes being on the recieving end of spawn camping, but it's a bit ridiculous to say that it's impossible to escape. Most of the main bases have rather large spawn areas, and I have yet to find one where it is impossible to escape. The jeep method is especially amusing... if you can zip by the campers... Boston driving!!!

I think the biggest point here is the winning effort idea. If one team beats the other back, completely dominates them, and takes all the spawns... what are they supposed to do then? Is all the teams effort rewarded by having to then back off and allow the other team to re-group?

"folks attacking people for using perfectly valid tactics just because THEY don't choose to use them."
Exactly. I woudl say that the only area outside of this would be cheating. Cheating is weak, lame, and pathetic. But other than that- gimme a break. People will play the game the way they want. Instead of bitching about this or that tactic, I've always found it best to examine each enemy tactic and try and figure a way to beat it.

Or find a different server...

And gort has a VERY good point...
"No one seems to take any initiative to stop base campers from getting into the base in the first place."
I've lately also taken to base guarding on some of the larger maps. Not only does this help the team keep the base safe, but you can get a good amount of action as well. This should especially be considered by the people who are so unhappy with "spawn camping"... don't like it- do something about it.

To ramble a bit more... why do you play a game, for yourself, or others? Personally, I play for fun and a challenge. Thus, I can only govern what I do. I don't cheat, VERY rarely spawn camp, and try and help teammates whenever possible. SO- I have a pretty damn good time playing. What else can anyone do?

[BFN] Tuco · 02-25-2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Well what about TKilling. Its in the game so is it ok to do?

TKing...
A Does NOTHING to help your team. Spawn camping/killing lowers the other teams points, thus helping your team.

B In fact lowers you're own score, so obviously it's not even helping you...

I just don't get why people get so worked up over this stuff. Players online will do what they want. In a couple years, when there are only 3 BF servers still running, THEN this will be a major issue.
Beat down the enemy, or find another server.
And beat down that enemy..

Brutus · 02-26-2003, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpl. Reynolds

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBain

How do we do this if we can't get out of our base? Yes, yes, yes, yes it can be done if we try... Not good enough response for me.

Again.. you are the one to refuse to admit valid arguments.

Why can't you get out of your base? Again I say, "I DO IT ALL THE TIME." There is no way for them to watch all the spawn points, and the second I spawn I run, hide, crawl, grab a scout car... whatever it takes to get away from the base. If I can do it... why can't you? That's a failure on your part, and continuing to use circular reasoning doesn't change that fact. Just because YOU can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. I can't pilot a jet plane, but others can.

Quote:

Also, no, I wouldn't keep repairing the tank while it continued to blow away my team mates/fellow soldiers...so it's still unanswered (with a valid arguement)

Apparently the definition of sarcasm is lost on you. Lighten up a bit, learn how to enjoy life a little more.

Even I got the sarcasm. Thanks for trying to lighten the mood Cpl.

Cpl. Reynolds · 02-26-2003, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brutus

Even I got the sarcasm. Thanks for trying to lighten the mood Cpl.

My pleasure. Hey, to each there own. There's a couple hundred servers out there, if base camping bothers folks I know they can find one that doesn't allow it so they can enjoy the game the way they like.

ok... back to LD: Omaha and Point du Hoc!! (crack that whip)

02-25-2003, 05:19 PM	#101 (permalink)
Winged_Nazgul Sergeant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Harrisburg, PA Posts: 380	LOL. I do admit I wish I read as much real literature as I did in my youth. Much of the "reading" I do now comes in the form of these pointless forum threads. But I have read every word of this thread (I admit I'm a masochist) and I have yet to see anything approaching a logical argument from spawn whiners. __________________

02-25-2003, 05:28 PM	#103 (permalink)
Gort Warrant Officer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Southern BC, Canada Posts: 825	I guess we need a Geneva Convention rules for BF42. Ya rite. Spawn camping (as bad as some people might think it is) is a valid tactic. It's not enjoyable being on the receiving end, no arguement there. The object of war (be it real or a game) is to defeat the enemy thru any means possible which means anything goes that is permitted by the game without exploiting bugs or using cheats (including the in game wall hack). Okay, I'm talking uncapturable bases and making the assumption that there are no capturable flags held by your team. These uncapable bases have huge spawn radius so it's unlikely that your entire team will be killed off with a single gernade, arty shell or even a full volly from a B17. Rather than whine about it, do something. What's the old addage "when the going gets tough, the tough get going"? If it means grabbing a kit that you aren't as skilled as your normal kit choice, tough noogies. Become an AT or Engy if that's what it takes to get rid of the intruder. It's not likely you are going to be too successful taking out a tank in your base as an assault, medic or scout. An alternative to the hangar camper is to ignore him unless you are intent on either getting rid of him or using a plane. Think about it, if you can live without planes, which is quite possible, then leave him. He isn't doing anything other than preventing you from flying. Flying isn't the end all - be all of this game. If no one tries to dislodge him, then no one gets wasted and he sits idle causing no damage to players, allowing them to get out of the base and head off to cap a flag allowing your team mates an alternate spot to re-enter the game. If you are not in the campers field of fire, then no harm. Undoubtedly after a relatively short time frame, he will get bored and leave the hangar, that's when he becomes vulnerable again. No one seems to take any initiative to stop base campers from getting into the base in the first place. I have often delegated myself as 'base sentry' and will be an engy, dropping mines and detpacks at entrances to the main base. Then I will patrol (ok camp if you must) my own base with a tank or something with additional firepower than what I carry in my kit, watching for intruders by ground or air. I do agree that hangars or repair pads in an uncapturable base should not repair enemy equipment for the same reasons others have mentioned. It's not like an axis mechanic would work on an allied controlled vehicle and vica versa. __________________ 8)´

02-25-2003, 06:00 PM	#106 (permalink)
PxR\|GrimJack Sergeant Major Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 647	maybe I missed something........wtf are you talking about "not capping a flag"? my impression was we were discussing "camping" a NON CAPABLE flag/spawn point I still say its simple part of the game & if they do it they are helping their team by destroying enemy supplies no its not "real", but then......the concept of it having to be "fun" for the loosing team is a bit unrealistic too isnt it? __________________

02-25-2003, 06:12 PM	#107 (permalink)
McBain Private Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 32	Reynolds, I could argue against every point you have posted, but tbh... I can't be arsed. This argument is going no where. So for me to close I would like to make a few points - 1) Just because 'you can beat them if you try' doesn't mean we like to have to do it. You can beat wall hackers if your good enough, so lets remove all anti-cheat software shall we? 2) In this post I have only said I don't like it when they sit on repair bases and spawn camp. No one has yet managed to oppose the 'it's our base, why would we repair the enemy?' arguement, so I am assuming you can't. 3) We have also only said we don't like it when it's an uncappable flag and it's the last one, so please stop giving the arguement 'spawn somewhere else'. 4) I have never moaned or whined on a server about spawn camping Like I say, this isn't going anywhere, no-one is even crediting the opposing arguement with valid points...so it's kinda pointless. __________________ For LAN events in the UK featuring BF1942... IRC - uk.quakenet.org #lny

02-25-2003, 07:38 PM	#114 (permalink)
Dr. Boom Master Sergeant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 520	Ok here is another point that I dont think that anyont has made yet. People are sying that camping is allowed by the game so it is ok to do. Well what about TKilling. Its in the game so is it ok to do? Just because your teammates dont like it does it mean it is wrong? It is the same argument as spawn killing. (not that I am for TKing, that is the lowest form of player) And yeah we do consider people who do it to be cowards. I remember back in the day of playing Quake III, if someone was cought spawn camping they would become a laughing stock, and nobody would want them in the game. What is so heroic or skillful about sitting in one place and blasting people as they spawn. Man that takes so much skill. Why dont they just take the damn flag? I mean what is the point of doing it? It is not to try and prevent other players from taking the flag because the spawn camper never moves. They just stay in the same spot and fire away. They are not defending anything. I thought the point of a conquest game was to take flags, not to rack up frags. This game is not Quake or Counterstrike. Kill points mean nothing to me. What matters is taking the flag to stop the enemy from spawning there. That is what wins battles, not selfish racking up of kill points. __________________ Shop Smart........Shop S. Mart!!

02-25-2003, 05:58 PM	#105 (permalink)
Brutus Corporal Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 151	'Spawn whiners'. I always find it funny that people need to put a negative conantation on a view that opposes them. This is what people do when they are not able to effectively get their ideas across. It is also very sad. I am not whining. I just said that I don't like it. To me it makes the game less fun, and even less realistic. A soldier would not go into an enemies rear echolon, lay down in a bunker and kill people as the re-spawned. 'It is part of the game.' So is the wall hack. Game paly changes depending on who is running the game. Just because it is possible does not mean that it needs to be done. Anyone ever play monopoly and get money when you landed on Free Parking? If I remember correctly that is not in the rules. Winged, what I said about your reading skills was directed to this thread, not in general. Reynolds, you can site here and call people names all day long, but in the end I don't know what you are trying to accomplish. Some people think that people that need to hide in a bunker waiting for people to respawn is lame, others don't and think that it is a 'skill'. No one here is right or wrong, it is just opinions. People that think spawn camping uncapables is lame are the same skill level of player as the ones that don't. I can just as easily go into a spawn a kill people re-spawning as you, trust me.

02-25-2003, 07:31 PM	#113 (permalink)
improvius Private Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 76	The magic-nano-repair-bot-elves simply don't care which side you're on. They repair vehicles for the pure ecstasy it brings them when they do so. Of course, they have been genetically engineered to be like this. -Imp [spelling edit]

02-25-2003, 07:40 PM	#115 (permalink)
[BFN] Tuco Master Warrant Officer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 1,051	Only my 2 cents worth, but I'd have to agree with Reynolds. For one thing... "How do we do this if we can't get out of our base? Yes, yes, yes, yes it can be done if we try... Not good enough response for me." So you're point is that it's too challenging to escape the base when someone is camping? No one likes being on the recieving end of spawn camping, but it's a bit ridiculous to say that it's impossible to escape. Most of the main bases have rather large spawn areas, and I have yet to find one where it is impossible to escape. The jeep method is especially amusing... if you can zip by the campers... Boston driving!!! I think the biggest point here is the winning effort idea. If one team beats the other back, completely dominates them, and takes all the spawns... what are they supposed to do then? Is all the teams effort rewarded by having to then back off and allow the other team to re-group? "folks attacking people for using perfectly valid tactics just because THEY don't choose to use them." Exactly. I woudl say that the only area outside of this would be cheating. Cheating is weak, lame, and pathetic. But other than that- gimme a break. People will play the game the way they want. Instead of bitching about this or that tactic, I've always found it best to examine each enemy tactic and try and figure a way to beat it. Or find a different server... And gort has a VERY good point... "No one seems to take any initiative to stop base campers from getting into the base in the first place." I've lately also taken to base guarding on some of the larger maps. Not only does this help the team keep the base safe, but you can get a good amount of action as well. This should especially be considered by the people who are so unhappy with "spawn camping"... don't like it- do something about it. To ramble a bit more... why do you play a game, for yourself, or others? Personally, I play for fun and a challenge. Thus, I can only govern what I do. I don't cheat, VERY rarely spawn camp, and try and help teammates whenever possible. SO- I have a pretty damn good time playing. What else can anyone do?