Is this game too big for clans?

fetchez la vache · 08-27-2002, 10:33 AM

Okay it's early days yet, we're only playing one MP map atm. But my impression up to now is that a decent MP game needs at least 12v12 in order for there to be enough people to really get the most out of the array of vehicles/classes. To be perfectly honest, I still feel this lacks somewhat and prefer the 32 player servers more.

From my background in various FPS I have found that most clans tend to be made up of around 10 core players. Larger clans are out there, but they tend to be rather 'chunky' imo and seem to lack cohesion. They are difficult to handle.

With these two points in mind, I do seriously wonder how on earth we are going to see a strong clan presence in BF42 since the sheer number of regular players required for each clan is going to be difficult to maintain. Okay we might see 8v8 clan matches, but imo those numbers don't do BF42 justice and would radically alter the gameplay c.f. large player servers. For example I could foresee 8v8 matches being largely dominated by rapid flag capturing from jeeps and parachutists. :|

I must be honest and say I doubt whether I'll ever get my current RTCW clan playing this in any numbers or that have I the time to join a BF42 clan. But I think clans are the core of any longevity in an online MP game and hence it is important they prosper.

What do you guys think? Do I have reasons to be worried? Or are clans going to be big enough to 'handle' this game the way it should/deserves to be?

Docastillo · 08-27-2002, 10:41 AM

Ur quite right worrying about this. The average clan probably won't be able to gather enough players for a clanmatch...

DICE did once state they would make some smaller maps for clanmatches as well, so 8 vs 8 might become realistic and fun afterall.
Let's hope they didn't forgot they said this...

PzGr. Metzger · 08-27-2002, 11:20 AM

I pose to you gentlemen another possibility.

Why can't we have multiple clan vs multiple clan matches?
Clans A,B and C are allied clans and Clans X,Y and Z are axis clans. The clans can work independently or together depending on the tactics and the map. Tobruk for instance could be broken into defensive/offensive zones. Clan A protect zones 1-3, clan B protect zones 4-6, etc.

The logistics are not too terrible, 3 (10-12 player) clans a side would be easy enough to muster. After all, this is WWII, axis vs allied. A countries army is made of many different armies, regiment, divisions, battalions and so on.

Plus the other idea would be to have "specialized" clans join up. For instance, on Wake, you could have a naval clan, an aiforce clan and an infantry clan. I have seen clans starting with just such a specialist mentality.

The big prob would be vehicle availability. Clan B pisses and moans that Clan C took all there tanks and Clan A gripes that they both keep taking all the planes. Guess that part is left up to good leadership and teamwork... yeah, it's out there...somewhere.

There should be a cure for the "massive 64 player battles" through combined clanning, a new concept, but not new when it comes to winning the war.

Docastillo · 08-27-2002, 11:22 AM

well that's a very good idea!

leages will be much more difficult to organize though.
Imho, clanbase is one of the few who might be able to pull this off.

Boltz · 08-27-2002, 01:07 PM

Howdy all. I signed up and registered just so I could reply to this post and say that yes, that is a great idea

While I think everyone should be well versed in all the specialities, smallish clans could specialize in certain fields (like naval or air) and enter matches to provide support in those areas. A lot of this would need to be set up from the league leaders who would schedule the multi-clan matches for the clans to play in, or arranged by clan leaders. Anyway, great idea, I hope it flies.
By the way, great game. It brought me over from Tribes

swad · 08-27-2002, 01:20 PM

Novel idea. I suggested it here as well. A few of us in our clan brought up the idea as we realized the game was meant for a large number of people, and we don't have the people to front for a large game. Anyway, I talked of my ideas in the thread you see there.

Boltz · 08-27-2002, 01:29 PM

Thanks for the link swad. I'll bring this up to some other guys in our clan and see if we can make something happen. We have a good server for around 12v12 (t1) so hopefully we can hook up in the near future.

Dragon Fire · 08-27-2002, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Why can't we have multiple clan vs multiple clan matches?
Clans A,B and C are allied clans and Clans X,Y and Z are axis clans. The clans can work independently or together depending on the tactics and the map. Tobruk for instance could be broken into defensive/offensive zones. Clan A protect zones 1-3, clan B protect zones 4-6, etc.

TWL did that for 32 man (64 total) match in tribes 2 and it turned out really well.

fetchez la vache · 08-27-2002, 02:18 PM

Sounds as if it could be interesting! Probably a real pain to organise but it seems some of you d00ds already have some experience in 'larging it'.

32v32. Imagine that on voice comms!

maverick514 · 08-27-2002, 02:55 PM

there will be smaller maps a.k.a Kursk (look at XGR) but i think that u could finally be able to test out clan "allies" and have a large multiclan battle, thats a really great idea Metzger!

PzGr. Metzger · 08-27-2002, 08:43 PM

Thanks guys...

From experience in the WWIIOL arena, that game had clans that were a group of "specialists". I used to be a member of the 12th SS, we had a panzer group, panzer grenadiers, pioneers, aufklarung and so on. If the game had worked better, it would have been a better experience, but I digress.

A BF1942 clan could easily consist of the same. Some people only want to fly, so sign them into your clan as luftwaffe. Some are tankers at heart, so make 'em a Panzer division. We all need engineers, make a group of engi's for fixing and destroying. So on and so on....

I think clans will have to evolve to this new scale we are playing in. Everyone should learn to play the diff classes and vehicles, but we all have our favs. I think the prob we run into, is that people want to play clan matches so they can place on a ladder or something. This is nice and all, but the game is about the many battles and would fare better in a more or less non-ladder battle. It's not UT....

The only good memories I have of WWIIOL was the division getting together in a town to roll out a planned attack. A column of tanks with infantry riding on them, transport loaded with infantry, recon moving ahead, keeping us abreast of the situation while planes bombed the area of attack... then the game would crash...lol. As far as I can tell, the same can be achieved in BF1942 and I hope I'm there to see it.

The_Gray_Ghost · 08-28-2002, 05:54 PM

The size of the teams required for clan matches is really no different than Tribes or Tribes2. The ladders will probably have 12 - 16 player teams, which would only require a clan of around 20-25 members to make that limit each match, which is very attainable. I don't think I would like 8v8 matches. That's just too small for a game of this scope.

I do agree with Metzger that clans will probably want people to specialize, but not completely exclude other roles. There are some maps without planes, without ships, etc.

BashfulPlatypus · 08-28-2002, 08:03 PM

It shouldn't be too hard to get together reasonable clan sizes, 16 or so players, that would allow for 10-12 people at each match. Even though BF will support 64 player servers, I think these will be pretty rare. According the the BF development team the server needs a 2ghz processor with a 6mb connection and every player on the server should have about a 1.4ghz processor. (at least that's what I read in one of their interviews). They've also promised maps that will be suited for smaller teams. If they are even remotely as well designed as wake island, they should still be a lot of fun w/o huge teams.

PzGr. Metzger · 08-28-2002, 08:56 PM

Well, now that we have the good ideas, who wants to organize some of these big clans or clan alliances?

DOM Rabid66 · 08-30-2002, 06:48 PM

The Dominion Guild has over 90 members http://www.dom-guild.com
Rabid Dogs of hell have over 100 members http://www.rabiddogsofhell.com
The HEL Guild has about 250 members http://www.hel-guild.com

I am sure there are a few more as well

BashfulPlatypus · 08-31-2002, 06:38 AM

Wow, those clans sound like they have a TON of people. I'd find it hard to manage a clan of 15-10 let alone 90+. And before the game has even been released. There is no way that those are all serious players. Do they just sign anyone up or is there some sort of testing?

[LoD]MaN!aC · 08-31-2002, 03:22 PM

Mhmmm... I think the average German Clan doesn´t have more than 20 members...

So I see a Problem in this also, but some how it´ll work. The thing with the Clan allies really sounds cool to me.
This would bring the community very close together !

Maybe it´ll be like one Clan is one division, so you will have clans that are spezialized on flying aso.
I guess this could be pretty interesting but you would have a lottawork with the organisation of the whole Army... f.e. Clan A Clan B and Clan are allies. A Clanwar is on- A wants to fight at 8 pm , B at 8:30 PM and C at 7
This discusions´ll be very fine - i´m looking forward to that !

CJMello63 · 08-31-2002, 04:02 PM

I see it more of a decent server being able to host the big games. Getting people shouldn't be too much of a deal. Our group has about 30 although I am unsure of how many will participate in BF 42?

maverick514 · 08-31-2002, 05:27 PM

90...100...250!..... well, that is jsut way too much. I can understand if it is for more than one game, but jeez! you can't even get half of ya into 1 server! a clan that is like 10-20 is about right, esecially for this game!

DOM Rabid66 · 09-04-2002, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maverick514

90...100...250!..... well, that is jsut way too much. I can understand if it is for more than one game, but jeez! you can't even get half of ya into 1 server! a clan that is like 10-20 is about right, esecially for this game!

All of the clans I mentioned have many different game chapters and it averages about to about 20 - 30 players per chapter, none of these clans mantioned just let anyone in, they all have age requirements and all go through recruiting tests

08-27-2002, 10:33 AM	#1 (permalink)
fetchez la vache Private Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 69	Is this game too big for clans? Okay it's early days yet, we're only playing one MP map atm. But my impression up to now is that a decent MP game needs at least 12v12 in order for there to be enough people to really get the most out of the array of vehicles/classes. To be perfectly honest, I still feel this lacks somewhat and prefer the 32 player servers more. From my background in various FPS I have found that most clans tend to be made up of around 10 core players. Larger clans are out there, but they tend to be rather 'chunky' imo and seem to lack cohesion. They are difficult to handle. With these two points in mind, I do seriously wonder how on earth we are going to see a strong clan presence in BF42 since the sheer number of regular players required for each clan is going to be difficult to maintain. Okay we might see 8v8 clan matches, but imo those numbers don't do BF42 justice and would radically alter the gameplay c.f. large player servers. For example I could foresee 8v8 matches being largely dominated by rapid flag capturing from jeeps and parachutists. :\| I must be honest and say I doubt whether I'll ever get my current RTCW clan playing this in any numbers or that have I the time to join a BF42 clan. But I think clans are the core of any longevity in an online MP game and hence it is important they prosper. What do you guys think? Do I have reasons to be worried? Or are clans going to be big enough to 'handle' this game the way it should/deserves to be?

08-27-2002, 11:20 AM	#3 (permalink)
PzGr. Metzger Private Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 78	I pose to you gentlemen another possibility. Why can't we have multiple clan vs multiple clan matches? Clans A,B and C are allied clans and Clans X,Y and Z are axis clans. The clans can work independently or together depending on the tactics and the map. Tobruk for instance could be broken into defensive/offensive zones. Clan A protect zones 1-3, clan B protect zones 4-6, etc. The logistics are not too terrible, 3 (10-12 player) clans a side would be easy enough to muster. After all, this is WWII, axis vs allied. A countries army is made of many different armies, regiment, divisions, battalions and so on. Plus the other idea would be to have "specialized" clans join up. For instance, on Wake, you could have a naval clan, an aiforce clan and an infantry clan. I have seen clans starting with just such a specialist mentality. The big prob would be vehicle availability. Clan B pisses and moans that Clan C took all there tanks and Clan A gripes that they both keep taking all the planes. Guess that part is left up to good leadership and teamwork... yeah, it's out there...somewhere. There should be a cure for the "massive 64 player battles" through combined clanning, a new concept, but not new when it comes to winning the war. __________________ There is no pain, only dishonor.

08-27-2002, 01:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
swad Sergeant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Somewere in cyberspace Posts: 310	Novel idea. I suggested it here as well. A few of us in our clan brought up the idea as we realized the game was meant for a large number of people, and we don't have the people to front for a large game. Anyway, I talked of my ideas in the thread you see there. __________________

08-27-2002, 02:55 PM	#10 (permalink)
maverick514 Colonel Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: People's Republic of MA Posts: 6,061	there will be smaller maps a.k.a Kursk (look at XGR) but i think that u could finally be able to test out clan "allies" and have a large multiclan battle, thats a really great idea Metzger! __________________

08-27-2002, 08:43 PM	#11 (permalink)
PzGr. Metzger Private Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 78	Thanks guys... From experience in the WWIIOL arena, that game had clans that were a group of "specialists". I used to be a member of the 12th SS, we had a panzer group, panzer grenadiers, pioneers, aufklarung and so on. If the game had worked better, it would have been a better experience, but I digress. A BF1942 clan could easily consist of the same. Some people only want to fly, so sign them into your clan as luftwaffe. Some are tankers at heart, so make 'em a Panzer division. We all need engineers, make a group of engi's for fixing and destroying. So on and so on.... I think clans will have to evolve to this new scale we are playing in. Everyone should learn to play the diff classes and vehicles, but we all have our favs. I think the prob we run into, is that people want to play clan matches so they can place on a ladder or something. This is nice and all, but the game is about the many battles and would fare better in a more or less non-ladder battle. It's not UT.... The only good memories I have of WWIIOL was the division getting together in a town to roll out a planned attack. A column of tanks with infantry riding on them, transport loaded with infantry, recon moving ahead, keeping us abreast of the situation while planes bombed the area of attack... then the game would crash...lol. As far as I can tell, the same can be achieved in BF1942 and I hope I'm there to see it. __________________ There is no pain, only dishonor.

08-27-2002, 10:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
Docastillo Warrant Officer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 807	Ur quite right worrying about this. The average clan probably won't be able to gather enough players for a clanmatch... DICE did once state they would make some smaller maps for clanmatches as well, so 8 vs 8 might become realistic and fun afterall. Let's hope they didn't forgot they said this...

08-27-2002, 11:22 AM	#4 (permalink)
Docastillo Warrant Officer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 807	well that's a very good idea! leages will be much more difficult to organize though. Imho, clanbase is one of the few who might be able to pull this off.

08-27-2002, 01:07 PM	#5 (permalink)
Boltz Private Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 8	Howdy all. I signed up and registered just so I could reply to this post and say that yes, that is a great idea While I think everyone should be well versed in all the specialities, smallish clans could specialize in certain fields (like naval or air) and enter matches to provide support in those areas. A lot of this would need to be set up from the league leaders who would schedule the multi-clan matches for the clans to play in, or arranged by clan leaders. Anyway, great idea, I hope it flies. By the way, great game. It brought me over from Tribes

08-27-2002, 01:29 PM	#7 (permalink)
Boltz Private Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 8	Thanks for the link swad. I'll bring this up to some other guys in our clan and see if we can make something happen. We have a good server for around 12v12 (t1) so hopefully we can hook up in the near future.

08-27-2002, 02:18 PM	#9 (permalink)
fetchez la vache Private Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 69	Sounds as if it could be interesting! Probably a real pain to organise but it seems some of you d00ds already have some experience in 'larging it'. 32v32. Imagine that on voice comms!

08-28-2002, 05:54 PM	#12 (permalink)
The_Gray_Ghost Private Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: closer than you think Posts: 19	The size of the teams required for clan matches is really no different than Tribes or Tribes2. The ladders will probably have 12 - 16 player teams, which would only require a clan of around 20-25 members to make that limit each match, which is very attainable. I don't think I would like 8v8 matches. That's just too small for a game of this scope. I do agree with Metzger that clans will probably want people to specialize, but not completely exclude other roles. There are some maps without planes, without ships, etc.

08-28-2002, 08:03 PM	#13 (permalink)
BashfulPlatypus Private Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Olympia, Washington, USA Posts: 41	It shouldn't be too hard to get together reasonable clan sizes, 16 or so players, that would allow for 10-12 people at each match. Even though BF will support 64 player servers, I think these will be pretty rare. According the the BF development team the server needs a 2ghz processor with a 6mb connection and every player on the server should have about a 1.4ghz processor. (at least that's what I read in one of their interviews). They've also promised maps that will be suited for smaller teams. If they are even remotely as well designed as wake island, they should still be a lot of fun w/o huge teams.

08-28-2002, 08:56 PM	#14 (permalink)
PzGr. Metzger Private Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 78	Well, now that we have the good ideas, who wants to organize some of these big clans or clan alliances? __________________ There is no pain, only dishonor.

08-30-2002, 06:48 PM	#15 (permalink)
DOM Rabid66 Private Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 5	there are a few clans with plenty of people The Dominion Guild has over 90 members http://www.dom-guild.com Rabid Dogs of hell have over 100 members http://www.rabiddogsofhell.com The HEL Guild has about 250 members http://www.hel-guild.com I am sure there are a few more as well

08-31-2002, 06:38 AM	#16 (permalink)
BashfulPlatypus Private Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Olympia, Washington, USA Posts: 41	Wow, those clans sound like they have a TON of people. I'd find it hard to manage a clan of 15-10 let alone 90+. And before the game has even been released. There is no way that those are all serious players. Do they just sign anyone up or is there some sort of testing?

08-31-2002, 03:22 PM	#17 (permalink)
[LoD]MaN!aC Private Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 8	Mhmmm... I think the average German Clan doesn´t have more than 20 members... So I see a Problem in this also, but some how it´ll work. The thing with the Clan allies really sounds cool to me. This would bring the community very close together ! Maybe it´ll be like one Clan is one division, so you will have clans that are spezialized on flying aso. I guess this could be pretty interesting but you would have a lottawork with the organisation of the whole Army... f.e. Clan A Clan B and Clan are allies. A Clanwar is on- A wants to fight at 8 pm , B at 8:30 PM and C at 7 This discusions´ll be very fine - i´m looking forward to that ! __________________ Fear of the Dark ?

08-31-2002, 04:02 PM	#18 (permalink)
CJMello63 Major Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Raynham, MA Posts: 3,803	I see it more of a decent server being able to host the big games. Getting people shouldn't be too much of a deal. Our group has about 30 although I am unsure of how many will participate in BF 42? __________________

08-31-2002, 05:27 PM	#19 (permalink)
maverick514 Colonel Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: People's Republic of MA Posts: 6,061	90...100...250!..... well, that is jsut way too much. I can understand if it is for more than one game, but jeez! you can't even get half of ya into 1 server! a clan that is like 10-20 is about right, esecially for this game! __________________