Flawed map design in Objective Mode

Morat · 09-12-2003, 11:38 AM

There's something very wrong with the map design in objective mode that IMO needs fixing if there's ever to be more than a few servers playing it in the public server list.

I'm taking Hellendoorn as my example. Take a look at this map which I've linked from Eric Haines excllent annotated maps page

The axis team start with the three Southern-most flags, but the important thing to note is that the Southern flag where the objectives are and the flag just to the North-West of it are uncapturable for the allies.

This is one of the biggest gameplay flaws I've ever seen. It takes 2 or 3 allied engineers to destroy a V2. There are four of these to destroy so even an organised allied team will take a significant amount of time to destroy or damge their objectives.

However, the axis can spawn at the V2 site at any time, even if the allies are already there. This means that the axis team has virtually no incentive to mount more than a cursory defence of the V2 facility. What seems to happen is that while one or two axis players defend the V2 site the rest of their team is off capping flags on the rest of the map. There's no danger that the allies will benefit from this though, because any axis player can suicide and respawn at the V2 facility within 30 seconds or less as whatever class they like, whenever they like.

I believe that the objective needs to remain untakeable for the allies, but it shouldn't be possible for axis to spawn there if there are allies in the contention zone. This would force them to spawn at their untakeable West base and fight their way back into the facility they should have been defending in the first place.

If the map (and any others suffering similar flaws) were more like this it would open up much more interesting strategic possibilities, for example a small assault team could sneak into the V2 site, eliminate any existing defenders and prevent any more respawning, thereby allowing allied armour to cross the bridge choke-point. This style of play is currently impossible because any action at the V2 site results in axis spawning in from all over the map.

Objective mode is an interesting mix of conquest and RtCW-style maps, but game design like this makes it too easy for even an utterly clueless axis team to win the maps.

Dick_Justice · 09-12-2003, 02:08 PM

Sounds like constructive critisism. DICE should hear about it. Although I don´t own SW yet, you seem to have a point there.

Caslon · 09-12-2003, 02:58 PM

So..objective mode is how this map is by default..retail?

Morat · 09-12-2003, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caslon

So..objective mode is how this map is by default..retail?

No Caslon, it can be played in either objective or conquest mode.

I think the worst thing about the way that these maps work is the way players spawn in. In Return To Castle Wolfenstein and its Enemy Territory sequel the defending team tend to spawn in a room or other location a short distance from the objectives. It's close to the objective but not right on top of it, so you can be at the objective and still hold off the spawning defenders as they run in from their spawn location.

In stark contrast in Secret Weapons, the spawn points are littered all over the objective, so you'll be plonking down an ex-pack or two and suddenly 5 or 6 axis guys just spawn out of thin air all around you. It's really silly, and Hellendoorn isn't the only map affected. The spawn points at the objective in Essen (again untakeable) for example are scattered all around the inside and outside of the objective buildings, so you can often spawn with your gun pointing almost right at some poor ally planting his ex-packs. How ridiculous is that?

It doesn't seem so bad in Conquest mode where you expect that the odd defender might happen to spawn in a flag you're trying to turn. In Objective mode though that one location is so important the minute you get there and the axis team shouts for help the whole darn axis team teleports in like something out of Star Trek.

I can't believe it got through Beta without someone realising how daft it is.

sithlord · 09-12-2003, 04:04 PM

Thats why I wish more servers set spawn at 30s+

Nothing like attackin a flag with a group finally wiping out the defenders and being the sole survivour. Only to have 6guys spawn an take you out.

Fragmeister · 09-14-2003, 07:48 PM

i know what u mean.

09-12-2003, 11:38 AM	#1 (permalink)
Morat Master Warrant Officer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Diving towards your pos with my finger on the bomb release... Posts: 1,188	Flawed map design in Objective Mode There's something very wrong with the map design in objective mode that IMO needs fixing if there's ever to be more than a few servers playing it in the public server list. I'm taking Hellendoorn as my example. Take a look at this map which I've linked from Eric Haines excllent annotated maps page The axis team start with the three Southern-most flags, but the important thing to note is that the Southern flag where the objectives are and the flag just to the North-West of it are uncapturable for the allies. This is one of the biggest gameplay flaws I've ever seen. It takes 2 or 3 allied engineers to destroy a V2. There are four of these to destroy so even an organised allied team will take a significant amount of time to destroy or damge their objectives. However, the axis can spawn at the V2 site at any time, even if the allies are already there. This means that the axis team has virtually no incentive to mount more than a cursory defence of the V2 facility. What seems to happen is that while one or two axis players defend the V2 site the rest of their team is off capping flags on the rest of the map. There's no danger that the allies will benefit from this though, because any axis player can suicide and respawn at the V2 facility within 30 seconds or less as whatever class they like, whenever they like. I believe that the objective needs to remain untakeable for the allies, but it shouldn't be possible for axis to spawn there if there are allies in the contention zone. This would force them to spawn at their untakeable West base and fight their way back into the facility they should have been defending in the first place. If the map (and any others suffering similar flaws) were more like this it would open up much more interesting strategic possibilities, for example a small assault team could sneak into the V2 site, eliminate any existing defenders and prevent any more respawning, thereby allowing allied armour to cross the bridge choke-point. This style of play is currently impossible because any action at the V2 site results in axis spawning in from all over the map. Objective mode is an interesting mix of conquest and RtCW-style maps, but game design like this makes it too easy for even an utterly clueless axis team to win the maps. __________________ Desktop wallpapers by Morat at caedes

09-12-2003, 02:08 PM	#2 (permalink)
Dick_Justice Major Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Marl, Germany Posts: 3,350	Sounds like constructive critisism. DICE should hear about it. Although I don´t own SW yet, you seem to have a point there. __________________ Plays BF 2 in Europe under the name of \"Erich_Felsner\"

09-14-2003, 07:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
Fragmeister Sergeant Major Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Hawaii Posts: 632	i know what u mean. __________________ \"wakka wakka wakka.\" Surrender now and win the Free Hat!

09-12-2003, 02:58 PM	#3 (permalink)
Caslon Lieutenant Colonel Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Deep inside the Earth. Posts: 4,850	So..objective mode is how this map is by default..retail?

09-12-2003, 04:04 PM	#5 (permalink)
sithlord Private 1st Class Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 125	Thats why I wish more servers set spawn at 30s+ Nothing like attackin a flag with a group finally wiping out the defenders and being the sole survivour. Only to have 6guys spawn an take you out.